Tasmanian Bolting Wars

I have seen numerous climbers top rope this route without the need to rely on bolts. It is a shame that someone has seen fit to wreck this fantastic route. They should learn to set up natural top rope anchors (or are they just too lazy) otherwise just leave the route alone.

Gary

Mick fox has put up many fine routes in tassie, and I will look forward to jumping on more of these on my next trip down there.
I my self have bolted routes in many locations in tasmania and have never had any negative feedback.
I think that if you are sensible and have the environment, the local ethic, an eye for beautiful lines, and a good knowledge of the right way to do the job, using the best materials and using minimal impact as a guideline to the work, then it will be a good job that will be enjoyed for many years to come.
The u bolts on a cliff that takes great trad is an obvious example of a chop job by non thinking, or selfish individuals.
Thank god these are an extemely small minority, but one rotten apple... as they say.

At Coles Bay this weekend I was dismayed to see that someone had chopped the bolts at the top of Lightfingered Madison. I agree totally that the bolts were an unnecessary eyesore but what is there now is worse. The deed appears to have been done with a hacksaw which has resulted in about 10mm of steel protruding from the rock. Even in the short time the bolts were there they had begun to rust, chopping them and leaving 4 stubbs protruding will significantly increase their visual impact (as they will rust more quickly and leave orange stains).

Had the bolts not been chopped they could have been removed by heating the bolts and glue and simply pulling them out. This option will now be significantly more difficult. Both bolter and chopper are at fault here, but I can't imagine why anyone would think that 4 rusty stubbs would look better than 2 shiny U bolts.

BEN LOMOND RAP STATIONS TO BE CHOPPED
Having thought long and hard about this issue, Bob and I are planning to chop the rap stations on the Flutes and the pavilion. We are determined to keep Ben Lomond as a traditional wilderness climbing area and a bolt free zone. There has to be some last bastion of purity left in Tassie. The rap stations, though not on a climb, compromise the status of the area as a pure trad climbing venue. We walked down the gully for 20 years before the rap station was installed (by John Fisher initially and later replaced by M.Fox I think)- its all part of the trad experience. I would appreciate advice on how to do this properly - it seems a hacksaw is not adequate. We don't have the technology to heat up the bolts either. I have also heard that someone has commenced bolting an arete/face at the Flutes - if we find it we'll chop it as well. We also don't agree with bolts placed on lead on a groundup ascent whilst hanging from a skyhook - though a much nobler ethic than rap bolting. In case anyone craps on about you guys not owning the crag etc,bear in mind that Bob and I have been on the first ascent team of over 250 routes on the mountain (out of 325). Surely that counts for something in terms of setting a precedent for bold traditional climbing. Any bolted routes belittle the efforts of guys who ran it out from r.p's in the 70's and 80's. Gerry Narkowicz

>>>>I would appreciate advice on how to do this properly - it seems a hacksaw is not adequate. We don't have the technology to heat up the bolts either.<<<<

I don't know what the bolts at the Ben are but if they are glued in then almost certainly it will be possible to pull them out once the glue is heated. Use a propane torch from Bunnings or even your camp stove.

Dyna bolts can be removed with needle nosed pliers and a hammer unless they have the two part sleave and as far as I know true bolts can't be removed. 

My opinion is that a hacksaw is not adequate and only makes more mess, which would be a shame at such a beautiful place.

i think i agree with those bolts going. those bolts above the arete are two hangers that are right near the abseil station. i have also heard rumours of bolts in the area that are used for top-roping sessions of groups. if these do actually exist will they also be going?

 it is indisputable In My Opinion that Frews Flutes gains nothing from bolts due to searing cracks. however not everywhere on the ben does have these splitter cracks. what would your opinion on bolts in an area such as stacks bluff be? there are many faces and aretes that would be awesome with a few bolts? also along this idea is a 'zoning' sort of mentality, some areas can have bolts, some stay bolt free. just an idea thats been tossed around

retro-bolting of aid lines so that they can be free climbed... is that acceptable? IMO no! i think to once a line is ascended it should be left the way it is. only the first ascensionist should be able to change the route within reason. (ie fixing a bolt placement etc) if someone wants to free that line they have no right to add bolts. i think to free the line you have to step it up a level and if it means 'headpointing' the route then so be it!

at the end of the day though we make mistakes. im a dirty liar if i say i haven't stuffed up myself. however recognising your mistakes, fixing it and trying to ensure it doesnt happen again is the most important thing. we have to leave something for the next generation to aspire to!

BOLTS ARE ILLEGAL STRUCTURES IN NATIONAL PARKS
Having just had a lengthy discussion with the head ranger up North, the official policy of Parks and Wildlife is that bolts in national parks are illegal structures. They have big issues regarding liability. If there is an accident due to bolt failure, their position is that the installer of the bolt is liable for the accident. We have consequently been asked by Parks andf Wildlife to remove any bolts on Ben Lomond. We have also been asked to dob in any bolters on the Ben to the authorities and they can be prosecuted. That includes the whole massif - Stacks included. As for Doug Bruce's comments about not owning the mountain - no-one owns the mountain for sure, but that same logic applies to people wishing to put bolts in. They don't own the mountain either, and they don't have a right to put bolts in a cliff they don't own and spoil a beautiful, traditional climbing area. I have put more bolts in than anyone up North,but never in a national park. Its the context that counts - places like the Gorge, Hillwood are fine, but in my opinion there must be some last, untouched pure trad climbing venue left in Tassie. So Doug, I'm not messianic here, just upholding the law and the trad ethic that has prevailed since 1970. By the way, Parks policy has huge ramifications for Freycinet - they would go nuts if they knew of the free for all bolting going on there.

More than 35 years ago, a staunch traditionalist set off on the second ascent of a long, multi-pitch route with the express aim of chopping all the bolts that had been placed on the route, as he perceived that far too many had been drilled, thus demeaning the rock environment.  After chopping all the bolts on the first few pitches, the climber started to marvel at the level of commitment and accomplishment of the first ascentionists, along with the quality of the climbing.  He decided to stop chopping and completed the route, leaving the rest of the bolts in place.  The climber was Royal Robbins, who subsequently acknowledged the skill and daring of his hitherto nemesis Warren Harding.  The route was The Wall of the Early Morning Light, now known as Dawn Wall, and is located in an obscure national park known as Yosemite.

The moral of this story is that a sense of perspective, history and viewing the world in full colour, not black and white, is what is needed in this debate.

Hi All,
I've just been made aware of this forum so thought that I may as well add my own two cents worth.
I'm not sure why the need to chop bolts at the northern end of Ben Lomond has suddenly become such a burning necessity. Are you scared Gerry that the ethic Bob and yourself have established up there will not be respected and that bolted routes will start cropping up on Frews flutes? If this is the case then fear not, my understanding is that the general consensus is that bolted routes won't be established on Frews flutes, certainly by those in the community who have placed bolts in the state.
Claire and I climbed up at Frews flutes on weekend, one of our most enjoyable days out this summer I might add. My last trip up to Frews would have been in summer 05\06 and the track up to the base of Rajah etc was an un-obtrusive pad. Now erosion is a real problem, it's a horrible metre wide gravely scramble up to the base. Over the course of the weekend at least 10 climbers made there way to the base of the cliffs at Frews flutes a party of 4 on sat, ourselves and 2 other parties of 2 on sunday, (assuming this is an average for summer and that nobody climbs there in any other season then there are at least 130 people a year making there way to the base of the crags, no wonder the impact). I was pleased to note that the bolts at the top of Rajah were still there and we abseiled off them. I have never walked down from the top of Frews, however I imagine it to be an enjoyable scramble down and pineapple grass filled alpine gully, my loss that I've never done it. Why not keep the gully this way for those who wish to enjoy it while the rest of us abseil down the chimney?
I felt a little tentative about making comment on this forum, people evidently have very strong opinions. I know that us climbers find it very hard to reach consensus on issues but we've never needed to call on "legal" action before, surely we can do it without out calling on the authorities still. As Doug mentioned climbers have placed illegal fixed protection (slings, bolts, etc) in every national park in the state. Parks and Wildlife are obviously aware of this and I'm guessing are turning a blind eye because a) they don't have the resources to manage it and b) it hasn't been a big issue.
The only way a "bolts here and not there" rule set can be established is by consensus amongst climbers. Parks are never going to have the funding to enforce it; millions of dollars a year are spent trying to enforce traffic law with dismal results, I can't see any funding at all being spent on climbing.
If it was done my way Frews would be left bolt free, the exception being rap bolts. The justification:
-           Climbing load will increase over the years, rap bolts will protect the environment where erosion is likely to become an issue.
-           A bolt free ethic has been established here by those who developed the cliff into a climbing area, why not respect it.
-           Bolted routes seem unnecessary, there is already a climb every 2m up the cracks, do we really need a route every 1m to include the arêtes aswell, and
-           It looks nice without bolts!
Cheers,
Kim
 

Many years ago when I first climbed at Ben Lomond It was a paradise for traditional climbing, we climbed rigadoon then walked down the back off the top to get back to uor packs, had some snacks and decided to do another route, maharajah, it was sensational no bolts in sight, we again walked down, after some lunch we decided to do defender of the faith, superb route, again we walked down!
If there had been a rappel station we definitely would have used it!
The first reason is purely greedy, we would have had time to fit in a fourth climb that day!
The second reason is purely generous I would love that beautiful and rare forest that grows on top of the ben to be pristine and undamaged by bumbling climbers for every one to behold (from the top of the climbs, without having to bash their way down thruogh it) for many many years to come, without the erosion weed and soil desease introduction or accidental litter/toilet paper ect that would be a definate out come of no rappel route in place to protect such a delicate and unique place.
A rappel exit does NOT interfere with the traditional ethic of ben lomond, all climbs are done ground up nuts in,including the belays at the top! if the young guns decide to bolt any climbs on some other buttres that is only protectable by placing fixed gear, then all power to them! that is the ethic of otherwise unprotectable climbing!
It seems to me that this is a trumped up exuse to keep an area time locked by some of the individuals who initialy set up some of the climbs, whats the matter gerry scared that they will show you up? maybe do some climbs that you can't repeat?, lose your spot on the top of the hill?
Get over it man!
put the shoe on the other foot and think about some environmentalist saying he was going to cut your ropes cos you were walking through an incredably delicate eco system on the way down from your climbing, and he had been documenting that area for many years before you arrived on the scene!

get simon parsons onto it !

>>>>>>>>>>> ive made up my mind now and having listened to many peoples views about it.<<<<<<<

Yeah, good one Gaz ... yeah what the f###, eh ... one more dammed river in SW Tas won't make any difference now, eh mate ... 

It seems that the majority want bolts. To be truthful, as society progresses we want it easier and easier. Clean rock, safe climbing, bolts, easy access; it is all part of the modern world.

But it comes at a price, pristine rock littered with metal in National Parks. So in a way I agree with Gerry and really would like National Parks to stay clean from our litter.

However it is not going to stay this way as climbing has changed. The adventure has gone or rather the type of 'adventure' has changed. To many climbers the way is low risk sports climbing. Others love both traditional and sports climbing.

The question is where to bolt? Everywhere? I don't think so. That would be selfish.

In theory it would be nice to have some bolt free cliffs as is often cited on Peak District gritstone where climbs are led boldly, admittedly top roped first.

The idea of a bolt free National Park is appealing. In UK they have managed (mostly, Garry may correct me here) to keep the grit free of bolts and it is respected. Is this the only place in the world? If so, having one such area in Tasmania would make it unique too. Or do we want to be like everywhere else?

In the end there is no simple answer to the debate and perhaps every cliff and climb has to be considered on its merits.

My personal opinions on specific areas are as follows. These are not fixed.

Ben Lomond

Initially I agreed with most people that we should keep the abseil bolts at the top of Frews. It would reduce the vegetation wear and tear. But now I am not so sure. Is there a good boulder field descent or isn't there? If the way down avoids trampling the alpine plants, it would be tempting to remove the bolts. One party was reported doing three climbs in one day this way so it cannot be too difficult.

The problem with them gone is that some people would inevitably use slings to abseil from and we will have tat everywhere as happens on the Pipes. Are half a dozen old slings, often of the cheap and highly visible white tape, better or worse than two inconspicuous U bolts? I think not.

As for the rest of Ben Lomond, it is unique indeed if it is free of bolts. I agree with Gerry and Rob at this point in time. I am sure there are lots of hard trad. routes to be done, some bold and no doubt some easier ones too. I am still finding new trad. routes on the Pipes, in a much smaller area. And there is no need for abseil bolts. Topping out on Aqualung for instance, it would almost be quicker to walk down than abseil a number of pitches and there are boulder fields to walk on. Traffic will never be heavy at Stacks or Africa.

One day when sports routes are out of fashion (this may be hard to believe, but so were bolts at one time) climbers will be disappointed to find little rock left to play their hard trad. games on.

Of course climbers cannot be policed so any bolt free area would need general consent.

Organ Pipes

Having climbed here for over 30 years I have seen changes and I guess the coming of bolts is the major one. This has produced many good climbs and to date the bolting has been of a reasonable standard. However I do think there is now a real danger of the place becoming over bolted to the detriment of the cliff environment. Do we have to look at lines of bolts between all the crack lines on every arête and face, which has a few holds? You can see them from the Amphitheatre on the Columns glinting in the sun.

The abseil bolts (U bolts) are a very good idea and have saved the alpine vegetation already. There has been an abseil anchor on top of the Northern Buttress for 40 years.

Avalanche Couloir and Exit/Entry in the Amphitheatre have shown good recovery.

They have also reduced the eyesore of swags of abseil slings all over the place.

A big problem is severe erosion at the base of some climbs and the only solution as far as I can see are  stone walls, platforms and evens steps as at WWW, the upgraded Wineglass Bay track and the Zigzag track.

Who will do this? There is expertise around judging by the other mountain tracks being constructed. Maybe the Park authorities can be encouraged to help.

Having said I am in favour of some abseil bolts it can still be done badly by those intending to be helpful. The new chains and blue paint mark at the top of the Amphitheatre stick out like a sore thumb. No paint please and preferably no chains! Two U bolts would have been much less conspicuous put in a less obtrusive place.

I am also against convenience bolts across the top of the Pipes. i.e. for climbs accessed from the top of the mountain. There are large rocks and small outcrops everywhere to abseil from. Slings can be placed to abseil from and removed when the climb is completed. I have put up a lot of new routes across the top of the Pipes in recent years and haven't needed any bolts at the top.

 I think we should remove the two rusty old bolts from the top of Carrot Top and the shiny new ones on the slab at the top of The Battlements, which really detract from such a great rock feature.

Garry also canvassed the possibility of replacing pitons by bolts. Such fixtures are often unnecessary nowadays. e.g. Piton Crack had a peg for many years but has since rusted away completely and it is protectable with modern gear. The step-across on Sentinel Ridge was always protected by a piton but now two RPs fit in the enlarged crack.  'Into the Fire' was led by Kim without any piton.

In summary, check out the cartoon attached (stack.jpg). Funny perhaps and not so funny.

Phil Robinson!stack.jpg!
 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Don't Waste Your Life....... <<<<<<<<<<<

 .......... tolerating ignorant-consumer-obsessed sport(dork) climbers.

Hello all,
I have just discovered this debate, and it seems to have died down a little for the moment, but since it is such a periennial issue, I thought I'd add my view as an occassional user of the Ben Lomond cliffs.

In particular I wanted to respond to a comment made above: "After all it seems that no body except for you gerry is against bolting at Stacks and the Africa area". I have encountered this phenmoneon of the mainstream climbing community - forgetting about the quieter users of the cliffs - and I felt that this forum might be inviting people like me to speak out. It seems I must point out the obvious, that the following is just my opinion, and I recognise that there are actually well informed and inspired people who hold another view.

Excuse the rather serious tone of this letter - of course the whole debate can seem laughable, but I do still have a bit of passion for the cliffs left in me...

I consciously resigned from the 'climbing community' 5-10 years ago and don't climb that often now. However. when I do climb I mostly enjoy climbing in areas which I feel are relatively unspoilt by the work of climbers and feel better not writing up my routes in these areas. I happen not to like bolts much, and would prefer it personally if their usage had been much more restricted. As such I am really happy that there are quality, impressive, bolt free areas left to climb in. I believe that while having a bolt-free cliff does entail 'telling someone else what to do', it seems equally true that those who bolt are forcing their opinions on others - in a very active way. As such, I, like some others commenting earlier, believe a good compromise is to divide up cliffs into various ethic or style zones.

There are many bolt free places at 7 hours walk in Tasmania, but not so many with 1hours walk - in Tasmania or anywhere in the world. Even remote bolt freee areas places are reducing in number rapidly. Which areas should remain sling free, chalk free, bolt free, bolt limited, bolt freely, gluable, chippable, explodable etc is clearly still a matter of debate since I disappeared a few years ago. Hopefully this will come in tassie from a combination of consensus and good sense. By this I mean to point out that the majority opinion is not the only consideration - a sustainable approaches to long term controversy is to pay respect to the various views in a practical way. A proportion of cliffs should remain bolt free, not just one.

Cliff real estate can no doubt seem scarce to the modern day new router - I can therefore understand why some bolters writing above seem threatened antibolt opinions. Keep in mind then that much of the worlds quality rock has already being thoroughly metalled. Any excuse seems to be enough for a cliff to become fair game for bolted development - the commoner excuses being: there was no LONG tradition of bolt free, a single bolt was placed there 30 years earlier, non-bolt suggestions are just 'telling other what to do, etc. This approach leaves those offended by bolting only one cliff to explore for further development - the flutes. Bolters: Imagine if you had been assigned only one cliff to play on!! Doesn't feel good does it? It's a poor approach at present serving only a subset of the climbing population, even if they may be the majority at this time in history.

What establishes an area as bolt free? It seems that most people reserve this for a very rare set of circumstances - the Flutes being arguably the only awesome cliff Australia-wide protected by a widely held consensus. As a past and present explorer of 'new' cliffs I have felt it very difficult to establish a new cliffs as bolt free. Many people feel that trying to establish a cliff bolt free is being dogmatic, but fail to see that placing a bolt is similarly dogmatic, albeit quite popular these days. For example the paradiso. I guess it was only a matter of time before someone discovered the paradiso - I'm disappointed that I, or someone with a similar vision and greater ability, had the time and commitment to climb some of the more impressive routes there bolt free (two routes I was working on were subsequently bolted). Yes, I too found the routes way easier to do with bolts, and of-course much quicker to establish. The 'black beauty' we discovered is now heavily poc-marked with light grey cementing - a little careless I feel. I have no doubt the cliff was a really rare example being steep and having enough great gear to make many great routes quite safe. My views here may be unpopular and indeed seem irrelevant to current generations developing that cliff further, but the question still remains: how can any new cliff be established bolt free?

The same question arises for rediscoveries: for example some of us had been quietly enjoying a wilderness style redevelopment of Cape Raoul in the 1990s . It later was 'redscovered' again by bolters. I and many others don't want all rediscovered cliffs to become a 'sport/mixed' zone - even if a bolt was placed there by some an intrepid aid climber 40 years ago, or even for some multisport TV show recently. Yes, it is just an opinion, but this opinion is repeatedly dismissed as being less valid each time a new bolt goes in. The above debate calls for a more balanced approach. The 'new way' is not the only way, it's not even new, it's just 'a way'.

Regarding Stacks bluff: As I said, i don't climb so much any more, but if usage counts as creditial in this forum of opinions, I venture to say I have probably climbed at stacks bluff more than anyone who has contibuted to this debate online - admittedly only 4 times in the past 5 years, but the trips are particularly relevant to this debate as it has been a 'new' route done each time. I enjoy climbing there in relative solitude, with a sense of the wildness of the place, doing new routes the way I enjoy - be it ground up or head pointing, or preplacing gear if it's too hard for me. Many faces there have gear on them - most of it is nothing like Frews, and it's awesome. This cliff type is perfect for '80s' style natural face climbing of all sorts. It's been good fun for me, and my various companions (Simon Jarman, Marcel, Molly, The Bowms, Garn). I personally like to think it is unlikely anyone would be able to tell if I have climbed a certain piece of rock, it's more important to me than style. i value the idea that someone may have the same feeling when they do the same 'new route' a few years later. It's a contrived concept, but so is the whole sport, but my version is certainly undermined completely by the actions of bolters.

I, and some others would be very disappointed if people started bolting at Stacks Bluff, or Africa for that matter. This is really less of a commanding statement of ownership than are the actions of someone who decides to take up bolting there. If 'you' bolt Stacks, your actions would affect myself and others directly. Other users of the cliff will disagree with me - I ask them sincerely to leave the Ben massive alone - bolting crews have had their way a many times over, on other cliffs once enjoyed bolt free.

As a final elaboration, in case someone thinks that our 'clean, silent' routing isn't out there, and Stacks is the only stomping ground, think again. I and some others feel numerous other cliffs should remain sport/mixed free: Frenchmans, Field West, The Western Arthurs, The Cliffs of Insanity, Mt Murchison, remote South Freycinet to name a few. I don't kid myself that I/any one person has the final say for these cliffs, but I have stated my opinion and bolters note: don't kid yourself that we don't exist and that you don't cramp our style.

As a blow-in who most of you don't know, I would just like to add my tuppence, or stick my oar in! The most overwhelming sense on reading all of the above is that CONSIDERATION for fellow climbers, and non-climbing users of the wild and not so wild places we climb MUST be the number one motivation. We should think of those who forced routes bolt-free, and respect their courage, we should think of users today and tomorrow, and well into the future - will what we do destroy the experience of others?

Essentially I agree with Hamish. I come from Ireland, where the same debate has raged and will rage. The whole country is essentially bolt free - this is for two reasons mostly - the force of conviction of the majority of the small climbing community there, and the happy chance that the vast majority of our fantastic rock is traditionally protectable. There is one bolted quarry, and a few bolts placed by caving groups on cliff tops (literally a handful) BUT there are moves being made by the young and strong to bolt our unprotectable limestone stuff to try and bring the standard of sport climbing there to a more respecvtable level (not an issue for me!).

Our premier crag, Fairhead - a vast sill of amazing columnar dolerite 3 miles long and 100m high to rival anything in Tassie! - is a bastion of traditional ethics. The visiting English climber Gary Gibson placed a couple of bolts on blanker faces years ago - the last of these were chopped by the young and strong Ricky Bell, who then led an amazing 50m face "The Complete Scream" at E8 6c (AU 30) protected by a couple of tied down sky hooks. I guess the point here is that just because you or I can't contemplate leading something like this without bolts, someone might some day, and my feeling is we should leave these kinds of lines alone and waiting for someone stronger and braver. Ego driven territorial pissings against the accepted ethic of a place are not good!

Having said all that, there is clearly a place for bolts - Hillwood strikes me as perfect for them - it would never have been developed without them. All of France's limestone crags could not exist without bolts. BUT, Tasmania's wilds don't need clip ups scattered willy nilly in established trad areas. Adventure is what it is all about out there surely? it is what has drawn me here!

Anyway, enough rambling - if you are interested, a video of Ricky's exploits in 2005-2006 called Underdeveloped will be out soon, and it is stunning! Also check out the gallery section etc on www.fairheadclimbers.com if you want to see the Irish version of Frew's Flutes plus the Organ Pipes plus Stack's Bluff all rolled into one and a sea cliff to boot!

Domhnall

>Essentially I agree with Hamish. I come from Ireland ...

Oh well — there goes ur credability !!!

But anyway , its good that this has become an international debate !!!

Even Victorians AND EVEN GIRLS !!! YAY !!!
are getting involved !!! Bolted cliffs are sooooo 2005 !!! Get over it boys ... a friend of mine lives in Hobart, and reckons Flange Buttress is an absolute FKN disgrace !!! What will the next generation think of all that crap glinting selfishly in the sun ???

MORE POWER TO U GERRY !!!

>overall i think there is too much ego involved in a lot of whats happening! maybe one weekend at the start of this summer we could meet somewhere<

Simey — what about all the people from the last and NEXT 30+ years ???

Clearly Tassie is in a transition , where generation Y are doing a bit of travel, and then feeling a bit inferior by ' The Huber Bros ' standards ... get over it !!! Go there any time ... on the 'sucks'
internet ... If you have REALLY learnt anything from ur travels then u wqould appreciate the bolt-free status of The Ben ; What remains of the wild rivers of SW Tas ; The lovely uncrowded beaches ... and ADVANCED thinking not 'lagging' culture ...

Sling tat on the Flutes is much better than what has happened to Flange Buttress ... as on K2 , where expeditions are organised to strip all the build-up of fixed rope on the popular routes , so too, at Ben ... better than seeing ugly glue and stubs of metal after Gerry ( and a whole lot of people who sport climb but know where to draw the line !!!) has chopped them.

We all know that a few ' quality bolted routes ' soon leads to masses of mediocre shite drilled all over the place , by people with dubious short term motives and limited understanding of a ' reasonable ' world view ...

Things are getting really stupid in the island state , and many Viccos , AND GIRLS , are very concerned when , for example, a line of bolts gets drilled at The Acropalis — an area where that is totally inappropriate ... the drillers obviously hoping to set a ' precedent ' so others can feel ' good' about bolting there ... same applies to The Ben

BE A MAN/MEN , boys !!!
GO AND FIND A NEW GRADE 27
CRACK LINE TO PUMP UR ENERGYS INTO !!!

i think areas that lend themselves to be bolt free and remain as such are much more impressive than one or two climbers imposing their will on an area that would be amazing with the odd bolts.

FORGET FREWS FLUTES!!! no-one is thinking of bolting routes there. but what is the point of trying, to the point of getting 90% of the climbing community offside, to get a label on a crag to impress people? and most of these people have will have bad things to say about the guidebook now being now out of date. (not to mention the rest of the gripes)

THE NEXT GENERATION WILL BE LAZY! its hard enough to get the gym junkies out of the gym, let alone conceive them going to the effort of climbing new routes. dont you think teaching them that responsible, unified agreement on these issues is better than zealots imposing there will. i think the next generation will be glad that quality u-bolts were placed and they wont have to worry about fanatics chopping them while everyone else puts them back in!

has anyone been to arapiles lately? has a few quality bolted routes there lead to "masses of mediocre shite drilled all over the place"? there are so many statements like this throughout this laughable debate that imply bolts breed like rabbits! THIS IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN! if you want to start thinking on a longer term scale then we should perhaps consider the main protagonist in removing these bolts was once the loudest anti-bolter around, then with a change of heart he has placed more bolts in the state than anyone else, now the bolts are chopped. so whos to say that these few will not once again turn 180 degrees and leave everyone stumped as to whats going on.

in terms of the main "would be bolters" on the ben, they are more than capable of recognising good ethics and maintaining them. its not a black and white issue, it never will be. you cant just say bolts are never going to have a place, just as fully bolted routes with triple bolt belays arent the only solution!

i think areas that lend themselves to be bolt free and remain as such are much more impressive ... Your friends have been bolting at The Acropolis ... what do you think about that .

than one or two climbers imposing their will...

For every climber who speaks up, another 10 quietly feel/think the same way.

on an area that would be amazing with the odd bolts...

 The Ben Lomond massif *IS* amazing , and doesn't need bolts in the legally protected rock faces to make it even ' more ' amazing.

FORGET FREWS FLUTES!!! no-one is thinking of bolting routes there...

But what about all those lovely aretes, one metre from the cracks ?? Look at the saturation bolting on the Pipes !!!

We have no intention of invading Poland !!! ..... yeah right ...

but what is the point of trying, to the point of getting 90% of the climbing community offside, to get a label on a crag to impress people? and most of these people have will have bad things to say about the guidebook now being now out of date. (not to mention the rest of the gripes)

Oh about as much point as there is in fkn it up, forever ala The Acropolis and Flange Buttress ...

THE NEXT GENERATION WILL BE LAZY! its hard enough to get the gym junkies out of the gym, let alone conceive them going to the effort of climbing new routes. dont you think teaching them that responsible, unified agreement on these issues is better than zealots imposing there will. i think the next generation will be glad that quality u-bolts were placed and they wont have to worry about fanatics chopping them while everyone else puts them back in!

Well how about we at least give the next generation the opportunity to have their say ! ... maybe we go with the bolt-free status thing , the new guide book , until the end of the decade and THEN many more people will have expirenced the fruits of The Ben !!! and can make a more state-wide, Australia-wide dcision .

I for one would have liked Eric Reece to have postponed things a bit , so he could have asked ME what I thought about the imminent compromise (destruction) of the Lake Pedder area.

has anyone been to arapiles lately? has a few quality bolted routes there lead to "masses of mediocre shite drilled all over the place"? there are so many statements like this throughout this laughable debate that imply bolts breed like rabbits! THIS IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

Well it HAS happened at Flange Buttress and the Paradiso.

Arapiles ? There a quite a few factions there , who make sure things remain in the traditional , balanced ' mixed-style ' crag spirit.

if you want to start thinking on a longer term scale then we should perhaps consider the main protagonist in removing these bolts was once the loudest anti-bolter around, then with a change of heart he has placed more bolts in the state than anyone else, now the bolts are chopped. so whos to say that these few will not once again turn 180 degrees and leave everyone stumped as to whats going on.

Well then, Mr Gerry ... be warned ... you will be cruxified !!!

in terms of the main "would be bolters" on the ben, they are more than capable of recognising good ethics and maintaining them.

 Unfortunately for the 'would be bolters ', they have lost a HUGE amount of cred' by what has eventuated at more than enough southern crags.

No one seems to care now, but what of Rick White's zeal to keep Frog as Australia's #1 trad/crack paradise ... Lake Pedder ? ... who cares ?

its not a black and white issue, it never will be. you cant just say bolts are never going to have a place, just as fully bolted routes with triple bolt belays arent the only solution!

The general community has discussions that get heated . We introduces rules . Rules get broken . We then introduce laws . Laws get broken ...

It IS a ' black and white issue '-- (has anybody bothered to consult with the indigenous stake holders ?) -- it's simple DON'T BOLT THE BEN !!! ... go to The Star Factory with your drill if you want to break the law and deny future people the opportunity to see expanses of pure rock in a national park
 

yep thats right. haha ill cya out there

'...There are plenty of climbers in the world good enough (Dave Macleod, Dave Birkett, Huber brothers, Tommy Caldwell, Sonnie Trotter - not many Australians though) to put up trad routes up to grade 34 on Ben Lomond if they could be bothered...'

Hi Mr Gerry !!!

You need to understand that it takes the yin to make/see the yang, yeah ??

So lets not get TOO arrogant with Simey , please

NOW, rather than waiting for international stars to visit ,ala Gullich at Araps in 1985 , how about YOU invite/ host them the way McMahon & Parsons did in the 70s and 80s .

Let's REALLY put The Ben on the world climbing map, PROACTIVELY !!!